... We have a dozen threads in this forum that's showcasing the use of the buffhammer. It boggles my mind that you don't notice unless it's affecting whatever ship you're flying today.

-Liang

Those ships are getting their skulls cracked by the nerfhammer in order to make room for other ships to be flown. It really is necessary, and your response is a perfect example of how individual players never have a game's long term interests at heart. They only have their own short term interests in mind, even if it kills the game in the process.

-Liang

I wasn't aware that it was 'strategic options' for the only BCs worth flying to be Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek and sometimes WelpCane.

-Liang

So not only can't you actually read what I said (I said MISSILES as a weapon type, not Heavy Missiles), you're quoting out of context to try and support an argument against something I didn't say. Stay classy Haquer.

Let's quote it in full:

1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 78207
2 425mm AutoCannon II 20830
3 Heavy Pulse Laser II 15924
4 200mm AutoCannon II 14974
5 Mega Pulse Laser II 13406
6 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 11938
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 11414
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 11344
9 150mm Light AutoCannon II 10500
10 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 9112
11 Light Neutron Blaster II 8393
12 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 7480
13 Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I 6692
14 425mm Railgun II 5687
15 800mm Repeating Artillery II 5526
16 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 5502
17 Light Ion Blaster II 5285
18 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 5264
19 Heavy Beam Laser II 5246
20 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 5008

3 out of 4 of the weapons in bold are the same missile system type (heavy).
Torps are in there due to Stealth Bombers - they are almost not used outside of that ship class.

Not a single other missile system type makes an appearance.

I think a 20% nerf to the damage of heavy missiles will be a good starting point. We can work from there.

And keep in mind, these poorly thought out changes have massive outside implications such as:

MASSIVELY BOOSTED:

Loki
Sliepnir
Muninn
Absolution
Legion

MASSIVELY NERFED:

Nighthawk---- b/c it wasn't already **** enough.

~Post change, NH is going to have at best, maybe 333 DPS at any range, and the only way to get comparable range to turrets is to sacrifice its limited low slots for dps or it's already horrid tank slots.... But hey, I'm sure one day you'll come along and give it more drones b/c that's good balance ^-^

lierally no reason to use a BS in PVE at all right now and the Tengu is the reason.

It's not as simple as a vote. We take all reasoned arguments into account but in the end not making EVE completely homogenous is CCP's responsibility and we can't shirk that responsibility.

I virtually never fly in blobs and yet I still have 2x more kills in Drakes than in all other ships combined. And furhtermore, I've always leaned heavily towards HML as being superior to HAMs. Though a proper HAM Drake is certainly a monster. :)

-Liang

I alway thought the guided missile was to be about Alpha and Accuracy over distance while the unguided missile was about rapid fire rate and DPS.

The damage is easily arguably too high, HML they only do poor damage when compared to SHORT RANGE medium turrets,

...or pulse fitted Amarr battleships.

Long range medium guns aren't really used because HML so utterly and completely dominate that field. Seeing some variety on the field will be a welcome addition.

-Liang

Did you miss the post were all medium artiliery are taking a 10% grid reduction.....you don't need as much power to run them. You'll still be able to fit two HAM launchers on a 650 arty cane, you are going to have issues jamming two med neuts on anything though.

...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.

I really don't get why people keep saying this. I didn't compare beams or rails to HMLs when I said "these are total ****, why would I ever use them?" On their own they're awful and need a buff or people won't use them any more just because HMs are being nerfed. The only thing that's going to happen now is that long range combat will be solely in the domain of artillery and rare but specific applications of rails (Nagas, Rokhtrine).

Some poeple maybe don't want to expend effort to debunk the flaws in the quoted post. Oh well, here goes,

What point is it to compare weapons without ship bonuses for those weapons. They simply don't get fit without the ship bonuses.
An all level 5 skilled character, for ease of comparison only since we all know most people usually train spec skills to 4, tech II high damage ammo, and no damage mods (just the guns man) can do the following with a
7 x HBL II Gleam Harby - 323 dps (7.5 optimal) (1395 volley)
7 x 250mm Rail II Javelin Brutix - 298 dps (9.0 optimal) (1406 volley)
6 x 720mm Arty II Quake Hurricane - 281 dps (7.5 optimal) (3177 volley)
7 x HML II Fury Drake - 271dps (75.9 optimal -> realistic 72km range) (2310 volley)

Notice the big diference the guns less than 10km (not 40km) and the missiles 70+km. You are comparing very short range performance against a weapon system built for range and it still is competitive. BUT, then plug in the long range tech II ammo and
Harby 184 dps, 54 optimal, 787 volley
Brutix 170 dps, 65 optimal, 804 volley
Cane 161 dps, 54 optimal, 1815 volley
Drake 271 dps, 70+ optimal, 2310 volley still

And yes most people fight in gangs, small or large, with tackle distributed. Drakes often are shooting past 40km in those situations. Regardless, the turret ships have to be within scram and web range to apply their slight dps advantage with short range ammo. The Drake wins at anything over about 10-12km well within a boosted point range at around 25-30km. The travel time at those distances will mean squat. If those turret ships are fitting an armor tank they won't be catching the Drake, and if shield fit it is flimsy and probably around half the Drake's tank.

Now some of this ignores the use of TEs or TCs but those things compete with damage mods, tackle, or tank and other things a short range ship needs to do it's job. But it was your example.

Firewalling is only really ever used in blobs. It is not always effective, and even when it is it's not like some manuvering can't get the missile stream around the wall. Firewalling was a suboptimal strategy bourne of the lack of a dedicated anti-missile ewar in the game. It will quite possibly be gone once TDs start affecting missiles as well as turrets.

And in case you missed it it is not only TDs that will have a missile effect it will also be TEs and TCs. Welcome to the wonderful world of ftting choices. A world that has been heretofore only inhabited by turret boats.

Instant damage does not matter unless you are in a mixed gang and seeking killmail glory. And even there look at the drone boat. He's waiting longer for his weapons to reach the target (and don't mention sentries for pvp with a straight face for anything other than gate or station camping). In a fleet action travel time doesn't matter for a missile fleet because the bubbles or Lach/Hugi combo are your tackle. Everyone's missiles will be traveling.

And notice the volley on the Drake at 70km v the Cane at 70km.

I think you need to get some experience with guns. I've got experience with both weapons. Do you? Training specs on 3 types of guns at all sizes and missiles at all sizes is a *****, but once you are there you notice these things. It gives you more of a perspective on the game than just oh boo hoo they're nerfing the weapon system I use.

what they were saying is that the hurricane had too much PG (able to fit 720s and a MWD without a fitting mod) relative to how much 720s cost, so theyre making arty cost less for everything else and MORE for the cane as it already had too much grid.